PLUME: So now we’re up to 12 Monkeys…

GILLIAM: Yeah, well, Chuck Roven had been hassling me for ages. All the other projects weren’t going anywhere, and I really felt that script was wonderful - it just seemed like such a perverse script to try and put through the Hollywood system.

PLUME: And, ironically, the same system that gave you so many headaches with Brazil…

GILLIAM: That became even better, when Universal entered the picture. It was really hard to say no to this one. Basically, Chuck wouldn’t let me let go, so I said, “Okay, fine.” I started suggesting actors, and the studio kept saying no, and I kept walking away from it - and then I got a call that Bruce [Willis] was keen. I met him on the Fisher King and I liked him, so I went up to New York with Chuck and we spent time talking with Bruce and - in the end - we agreed, “Let’s worked together.” And, really, off we went. Brad [Pitt] had turned out to be the cherry on the cake. With Bruce on board the thing was definitely going - and then Brad came along wanting to be in it. It was interesting because, at the time, I wasn’t sure whether he could do it - but he worked his ass off, and I thought he did a brilliant job. The studio couldn’t believe their luck.

PLUME: And the film sustained you at that A-list position…

GILLIAM: Yeah, I know - and again, we were number one for I don’t know how many weeks… worldwide, it did a whole lot of money. So that was very good. What I think is so wonderful is that you make a film like that - a really intelligent, demanding, complex film with a really wonderful cast - and then you have a meeting at Warner Brothers after it’s come out and they’re congratulating me on the film, and I said, “Yeah, that’s great. There’s an intelligent audience out there. You can make this kind of thing.” And they said, “Nah, nah, nah… There’s an easy explanation as to why it was successful…” And I said, “What’s that?” And they said, “Two words…” And I said, “What are those two words?” And they said, “Brad Pitt.” I said, “Oh… Not even Bruce Willis… Madeline Stowe… The script… The production…Nothing else…. Just Brad…” That’s the kind of stupidity that reigns in Hollywood. They can reduce something that’s complex and intelligent to the name of one actor.

GILLIAM: Or the one with Harrison Ford…

PLUME: I’m sure the two words change every week. When they get their secret executive handbook, I’m sure they have a decoder to find out what the new two words are…

GILLIAM: That’s right. It just never ceases to astonish me when I hear this - this reductive approach to everything. But 12 Monkeys was great - it was such a weird, complex film to reach such a large audience.

PLUME: It’s also great that the process was documented so well in the Hamster Factor documentary…

GILLIAM: Yeah… In fact, those two guys are doing a documentary on Quixote. They were grad film students from Temple University in Philadelphia, and we gave them a Hi-8 camera and told them to go to town - and it was wonderful. They did a really good job. I told them, “You have complete freedom to do whatever you want. I’m not going to censor it.” And they made a very good film.

PLUME: It’s a shame they weren’t involved on Fear and Loathing…

GILLIAM: Yeah, they missed out on some fun there…But I think they may end up with a really good one on Quixote.

PLUME: So what did they miss out on with Fear and Loathing? What was that process like?

GILLIAM: Fear and Loathing was interesting, to come into a situation where the actors are already lined up and the director’s just been fired. For me, it was an exercise in seeing if one could work fast and cheaply again - really cheaply. I mean, we made it for $19 million in Hollywood with Hollywood stars, and nobody has ever given us credit for that. What was difficult about that one was to try to be true to the book without being earnest - without being slavish to it… trying to capture it without embalming it at the same time. It was also about working fast and furious and saying, “We’re sharks - we have to keep moving forward. We can’t stop. We die if we stop.” It was freeing in a way, working like that. The crew used to call themselves Desert Rats, and they were ready for anything. After we wrapped Las Vegas after being out there for four or five weeks, they said they could handle anything. Just keep going. Just keep going.

PLUME: And how difficult is it to move at that kind of pace?

GILLIAM: It’s always frustrating, because you keep saying, “Oh God, no, that’s terrible… I need to do it better.” Nope! I always had to keep in mind what we set out to do. It didn’t mean I wasn’t screaming and shouting and complaining every day - because we didn’t have enough of this, that or the other thing. But it was great working with Johnny - he was spectacular, I thought.

PLUME: So spectacular that he’s making a recurring appearance…

GILLIAM: Well, that’s why. After that, when Tony Grisoni and I revived Cervantes’ Quixote - we wrote it for Johnny, basically. I just thought, “This is the guy I want to work with again.” I think he’s capable of anything you throw at him - so that’s what we’re off doing once again.

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